Andy Thibault

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Cablevision station serving Fairfield County, Connecticut
Taped 9-28-02

Host Janus Adams, author, columnist and broadcast journalist, is founder and publisher of Backpax Int., Ltd. and writes a weekly newspaper column called Winds of Change. As a writer for Black News, she received an Emmy Award. Among her many books is Glory Days: 365 Inspired Moments in African-American History.

JA – Janus Adams
AT – Andy Thibault

JA – Hi, I am Janus Adams, and welcome to another edition of Our Lives. Our guest today is Andy Thibault. Andy wears many hats. He is an author, he is a columnist, he is our guest today, and he has provided coverage on some of the most controversial cases. We’ll talk to him about those right now. Andy, the book, your new book, which is what really struck me and why I asked you to join us today – Law And Justice In Everyday Life – every book has a story. What’s the story as to what made you write this one?

AT – The book is about regular people and how they fare when they encounter the justice system or other government bureaucracies. So I guess, going back a long ways, I sort of wondered how regular, ordinary people do in society and I observed it for many years as a reporter and editor. So I collected a lot of stories.

JA – Was there one story that told you this is what you were going to do?

AT – Well, again, going back a ways, I admired Jimmy Breslin for many years. When I grew up, I wanted to have a column. I started writing a column for Law Tribune Newspapers. I tended to focus, just on regular citizens, from their point of view, rather than the point of view of the higher-ups.

JA – When you think of the background of the cases that you’ve covered, some that you’ve researched, is there one that stands out kind of above the others, that says, OK, this is the one that I began doing the work I’m doing for? This is the one why I needed to be doing what I’m doing.

AT – Chapter One is called Cover-Up In New London, and it’s about a cover-up of a hit-and run death involving a young college student.

JA – What happened?

AT – This happened on Christmas Eve 1973 at 11:12 p.m. on a well-lit section of Pequot Avenue in New London. A young man was changing a tire on a car and his date was sitting about six feet away on a stone wall. He was run over and killed. It later came out that the [former] mayor’s car was involved, Mayor Harvey Mallove who is now deceased. And he was reported to be at a couple parties that night – actually it’s a fact that he was at a couple parties that night. But he was also reported to be at a party with his best friend, Judge Angelo Santaniello, who controlled the county justice system.

JA – And?

AT – And, the cops destroyed and threw out evidence, they had auto body putty from the offending vehicle.

JA – How do we know they threw out evidence?

AT – Through reporting that I did and my mentor, a guy named John Peterson. We published all this stuff.

JA – Was it ever proven?

AT – Yes. There was a finding of fact by an investigative judge called a grand juror. They used to have a one-man grand jury in Connecticut. And that report, by that judge, is in the appendix of this book.

JA – What was the final outcome?

AT – The final outcome was that the judge, the good judge, issued a finding of fact that it was more probable than not that this mayor killed the kid. However, since the evidence was destroyed – evidence that might have ensured conviction was destroyed – they couldn’t go forward with a criminal case. That was the way it went. I contend they could have arrested people for obstruction of justice [hindrance of prosecution].

JA – Did the family sue?

AT – There was a civil suit, and the mom has since passed away. So, it’s nowhere.

JA – Law And Justice In Connecticut, we’ll be back, talking to Andy Thibault.

JA – We’re back with our guest, Andy Thibault. And Andy, pronounce the name correctly for me.

AT – T-Bow.

JA – T-Bow. T-h-i-b-a-u-l-t, and I’m spelling it so you can look for his book and the book is Law And Justice In Everyday Life. We were talking about a provocative case that you covered. But right now, in addition to, here you mention New London, the mayor, may have, the former mayor and I’m going to stress very much former mayor, because one of the former mayors is a friend of mine and she’s not the one. But Jane Glover is not the one that we were just talking about.

AT – I heard of her.

JA – Yeah, yeah, but still, it’s interesting that we look at something like that, this case of a hit-and-run accident. It is traced back. It is likely to have been this former mayor. It shows how influence can change the outcome … We’re talking now to a primarily African-American audience, some of influence, some who may not be of influence. But all who know the stigma of Driving While Black.

AT – Sure.

JA – And here we are talking about a hit-and-run that went unprosecuted. What have you found in your coverage of the law and its interpretation in terms of African Americans in Connecticut?

AT – Well, I’m familiar with the Trumbull Police and their history of arresting people for Driving While Black. So, race and class and wealth and station in society all play a role in the quality of justice that you get. That’s my experience.

JA – What is being done about it?

AT – I guess here and there people rise up and they monitor the justice system. I think if you want to have good justice, you have to have citizen oversight. Citizens have to confront public officials, observe them and hold them accountable. Otherwise, forget about it.

JA – Well, you know, that’s one of those statements that sounds great, but how is it really done? How does the average citizen participate in citizen oversight.

AT – Well, I’ll just cite a case. In Middletown, a woman was going through a divorce. Her estranged husband was part of the fire department. The cops would always visit her to look at her dog. But she didn’t call them. Then she called 911 for help and they were very slow to go there. And I listened to the tape. So I wrote a column about that called, Dial 911 For Harassment. She just got a lawyer who confronted the cops and the city and with a little bit of press and pressure from lawyer there was one citizen who is maybe slightly safer.

JA – I’m unclear about this case. I mean, I don’t really understand the point that you’re making. They were looking at her dog?

AT – Yeah. Well, you’re a woman, you’re estranged, your husband’s out of the house, you’re getting divorced, and the cops would come see her and say, Oh, how’s your dog doing? They would bother her. They’d harass her. Then when she needed them, they didn’t show up on time.

JA – Were they looking for favors, were they looking for sexual favors?

AT – They were probably buddies with her estranged husband, just giving her a hard time.

JA – Oh, OK, all right. I’m still unclear, Andy. I don’t understand what that means. Because when I think of sexual harassment …

AT – I didn’t say sexual harassment.

JA – Oh, OK.

AT – You think when you call 911, you might get some help. She didn’t get prompt help. Instead, before and after, she got cops bothering her.

JA – OK.

AT – And this is all because of relationships and politics.

JA – And what did they want? Because when they said, We want to see your dog, when they say, How is your dog, is that a double entendre, what does it mean?

AT – Oh, I don’t so. I just think they were being, you know, pains in the behind, bothering her.

JA – OK, so they were just letting her know she was being watched. Certainly when we look at this book, this is one strata, but next to some of the things that you really go into, that one is kind of innocuous. Is it not?

AT – Yeah, that’s kind of innocuous.

JA – And I don’t mean that critically, I mean the level of detail into which you go in the book brings in some other things. In fact, there’s a story you tell about the Black Santa Claus. Can you tell us about that?

AT – Sure. Probably a few people in the United States have heard of Uncle Tom’s Cabin, Harriet Beecher Stowe. In recent years there’s been some controversy about it, but, basically, at the time, Harriet Beecher Stowe gained a lot of attention because she showed that black people were real people with feelings and emotions, and Abraham Lincoln said, Oh, you’re that little …

JA – You’re the little lady who started this great war.

AT – Yeah, so she lived in Litchfield, Connecticut when she was a young girl. And the house was going to be destroyed. So a preservationist bought it, dismantled it …

JA – And we’ve had him on, Chandler Saint.

AT – Right. He’s run into a lot of roadblocks with the town shutting down the town meeting process to him. He’s still persevering. Meanwhile, there’s a really weird story where a fellow who’s a self-described Jewish atheist brings a black Santa Claus to Town Hall and places it there to show that, oh, this town is not bigoted. Whereupon, immediately, a town official writes a memo to the first selectman or mayor saying, in effect, get this thing out of here. And there were allegedly remarks, well, Jesus was white, what’s this black Santa Claus doing here in this mostly white town?

JA – Do we all accept that Jesus was white?

AT – Well, a lot of people think he was black, it beats the hell out of me, I don’t know.

JA – Well, he lived in the northern Middle East, there aren’t too many northern Europeans running around with blond hair …

AT – I think basically it’s irrelevant. Black, white, whatever. When I did a radio show, a guy said, Well it’s my position that Jesus was black. Well, whatever, you know.

JA – It’s not whether Jesus is black or white, the issue is this black Santa Claus who riled a lot of people and I just threw that in to see where we were going. Where we are going right now is to a break and we’ll be back with Andy Thibault.

JA – We’re back with our guest, Andy Thibault, and right before the break we were talking about the story of this black Santa that was placed on the Town Green in Litchfield, Connecticut.

AT – Right, at the Town Hall. And there was memo saying, in effect, get this thing out of here. So I went to get the memo because it’s a public record under Freedom of Information. And the first selectman told me he tore it up. And I said, Oops, that’s against the law, so I filed a complaint. And the Freedom of Information Commission ruled, they made a finding that this was in fact a public record under the law. When I called them, they said this is a serious matter, report it to the state police, to the state’s attorney, which I did. So there is now a criminal investigation of destruction of a public record. The reason, the Santa Claus itself isn’t that important, but symbols are important, whether you have military monuments or whatever. And I think the idea was, well, black people, white people, can all celebrate Christmas together. This rankled a few people.

JA – But the real thing is that this was symbolic of the town, was not, and the lifestyle of the town, and what they were willing to preserve or willing to do or not do.

AT – There seems to be no willingness on the part of the elected leaders at this time, and the powers that be, behind the scenes, to pay honor to Harriet Beecher Stowe and her contribution to race relations.

JA – Yes, how does that contribution to race relations in general play out with one of the other hats that you wear as a professor of journalism? What are you seeing in the portrayal of African Americans from your standpoint in journalistic reviews, in legal reporting? What are you seeing now?

AT – I have to tell you, Janus, what we’ve been doing is just trying to write basic stories.

JA – What is a basic story? How does one write one?

AT – I’ll just give you an example. We had a guest speaker who was a state police detective who solved the Michael Ross case – Connecticut’s infamous serial killer. So he made a presentation.

JA – And this was at the University of Hartford?

AT – Yes, he was a guest in my class. There was actually a case in Coventry, Connecticut, where they focused on a black suspect for whatever reason and they ignored [that] two weeks prior there was a man accused of assault on another woman at the same place at the same time. And the local police ignored that one and did go after the black guy.

JA – Who was or was not guilty of anything?

AT – He was totally irrelevant to the case. So that came up.

JA – OK, all right. And what do you find in your students’ sensitivity to those things?

AT – They thought that was pretty screwed up.

JA – Did they see the historic lineage of it, did they just see it as right and wrong, how are they seeing it, young people coming into the newsroom?

AT – In this particular case I think they saw it as one component of a story of the local cops messing up. So race was an issue.

JA – What is the role that you find as a journalist that you find yourself taking, is it straight reportage, quote objective, do you find these days that things are moving toward more advocacy? I’m finding more editorializing creeping into many of the so-called straight news stories. What do you think?

AT – Right now I’m a columnist for Law Tribune Newspapers.

JA – Which is supposed to be commentary.

AT – Right, but I am doing a piece on the Ganim corruption trial for Connecticut Magazine, which will be pretty much straight reporting. So I find there’s a lower level of competence these days, partly due to the conglomerates eating up all the newspapers and cutting staff.

JA – Lower level on what level?

AT – People who do the work. The reporters, the editors, the bosses. They’re all going downhill.

JA – But that’s general. Is there something specific? Are you seeing a lack of objectivity, are you seeing more advocacy, what are you seeing?

AT – I’m seeing a lowering of competence, but in terms of advocacy versus straight reporting, that’s bound to get mixed in as you lower competence.

JA – When we come back we’ll talk more with Andy Thibault.

JA – We’re back with our guest, Andy Thibault. And he has a new book called Law And Justice In Everyday Life. With this book, what would you like people to take away from it? In fact, I mentioned today that I was getting hair and makeup done this morning and my hair stylist said, Oh, my son is reading that in his course [at Norwalk Community Technical College]. So that was nice to hear. But what do you want people to take away from this book?

AT – I would like people to just take a more active role in confronting their public officials, their local police departments, and getting the word out about what’s going on.

JA – How did you find publication of this book, did you find that people saw it as what people expected of you, did you find people thought it was a controversial book, how has it hit.

AT – I think people have been struck in that it’s real stories about real people, many of them getting the shaft, many of them standing up and paying a price.

JA – Now your introduction has been written by F. Lee Bailey.

AT – Right, F. Lee Bailey has written the Foreword for the second edition and Howard Zinn, who once taught at Spielman College in Georgia, wrote the introduction.

JA – Yes, the historian Howard Zinn. And F. Lee Bailey, but in particular F. Lee Bailey, Howard Zinn is wonderful, too, because of People’s History of the United States, but I want to ask you about F. Lee Bailey. Because you are talking about people shafted. And F. Lee Bailey being part of one of the most famous cases of the century, I don’t want to say The Case of The Century, but clearly the O.J. Simpson case. How did that come together that he did the Foreword for you?

AT – Well, he’s a friend of a friend.

JA – Secondly, why did you feel that F. Lee Bailey, who is held in great esteem but also demonized, because of the O.J. Simpson case, why did you want him to do the Foreword.

AT – He’s one of the greatest legal minds in American history. If you go back to the Fugitive movie and the Sam Sheppard case, F. Lee Bailey made legal history by making sure that Sam Sheppard got a second trial and a fair trial.

JA – What did that tell you about when he was doing it until now? What changes are we seeing? Are we seeing any changes in the legal system, or is it still an uphill battle?

AT – I think Lee has remarked that he wouldn’t want to be starting now. I think he sees less competent judges, more hustle …

JA – Well, whether the judges are competent or the reporters are competent, it seems to boil down to our vigilance. And one way of addressing that vigilance is to read Andy Thibault’s new book, Law And Justice In Everyday Life. For Our Lives, I’m thanking him for joining us, and thanking you.

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